The French History Podcast & Fabulously Delicious talk France & Food

Gary: Well, thank you so much for being with me. Or if this is on your feed, then thank you so much for allowing me on your podcast. I am very excited to talk to you, Andrew, which I'm sure that the both of us have a lot to say about France, and both of us are dreaming about France, given that both of us are in a very gloomy and dark part of the world. In my case, I am in rainy Oregon, which we've gotten, we've done away with our one season of good weather. Now we're back to the perpetual darkness and the rain. And I hear that you are in the same boat over there in jolly old England.

Andrew: Oh no, I'm in France. Gary.

Gary: Oh, I thought you had gotten back. Oh, okay. Well, good for you.

Andrew: I'm in France. I only went there for a short period of time, so now I am back home. And. But actually, it is a little bit like England here today. It is gray, but thankfully it's not cold. It's about 28 degrees, but gray. So we've gotten an Indian summer for some reason. So we're supposed to be going into autumn. But for some reason we've gotten a hot couple of days.

Gary: Yeah, well, in that case, I retract my statement. I hope that things are nice for you. At the very least, you don't have to imagine. Wonderful France, since it is right out your window.

Andrew: Yeah, that's right. So, No, no, I'm happy to be home. And look, I'm very excited to be well, I'm honored and privileged to be sharing this audience with you, Gary, because I've been an avid listener of yours ever since I started my own podcast and got into podcast. Your voice has inspired me on many an occasion to be a better podcaster than I am.

Gary: Well, thank you. I've been told that my voice is pure Ambien, so apparently it hasn't had that same effect on you. We are at an interesting confluence, I think that for in my own vision personally, France has such an unbelievable and incredible history. And I think many people are attracted to that. But more than anything, if France is known for one thing around the world, it's probably for its food. So what drew you to making such a big part of your life about food and particularly about French food?

Andrew: Yeah, I think in regards to food, it was always a social thing for me and that was cooking for others. It's where I got positive reinforcement. Pretty much. It didn't start cooking until I left home. And once I did, then I started to cook for other people. So it wasn't really interested in cooking for myself. It was always cooking for others and then getting positive reinforcement back from them saying, Oh, that tastes delicious and you know, you're really good at this. You should be a chef. And I never wanted to do that. That was too hard to work for me. I was quite comfortable working in a call center and earning good money, but I was happy to spend that money on others and cook for them. And so that was food. But in relation to French food specifically, I had the experience in 2000, Look, I'd always had a bit of a love affair with France and with the French food, definitely, But we are really got into it was when in 2012, my partner, now my husband and I moved to France for just on, what was it, ten months? Yeah, nearly ten months. And at that time we weren't able to be married in Australia. So we came on a cultural well, I came on a cultural visa. He came to France to do his PhD in financial regulation in the EU, which is a great book to read. Gary, if you ever want to read it, I'll send it over to you.

Gary:Finance, Fantastic.

Andrew: Yes. So we he went to see us post, so he went off to school every day and I came over and I was in the apartment by myself. And so I went off and explored Paris. And then we'd have to be home in time to cook dinner. And then on the weekends we would go and see the places that I'd found so see the best that I'd found during the week. So I did that for ten months, just as he says, strolling around Paris doing nothing. But instead what I was doing was eating, eating good food and going to the markets. And I loved it. There was a little local shop just down the road from where we were staying, and she sold green like we would call it, a greengrocer. So she was selling fruit and vegetables and she would always speak to me in French. Even though my French was terrible.  And if I didn't get something right, she wouldn't let me leave the shop. So I think, you know, I spent a good half an hour in there once because I couldn't say citron correctly. So yeah, so that's sort of where my love affair for French food came about.

Gary: That is quite the story. I wish I had a tutor like that to help me out. My experience was kind of the opposite, where when I was speaking French, very often they'd get annoyed and switch to English, even though in most cases my French was better than their English, but think they just didn't want me to chop up their beautiful language with my horrendous Oregonian accent. So you personally experienced this incredible life in France. I can understand how that would impact how you came to love its food, its culture, but there is so much more to what you do. And in particular, you will talk about the history of a dish in particular in a recent collaborative thing we did, you were talking about how James Hemings influenced French cooking or influenced American culture by bringing in French cooking. Does knowing the history of a dish change how you appreciate it?

Andrew: Absolutely it does. I think that it gives me more, more courage to try things. I think that, you know, when you come to France, you can get a beer, can get a bit put off for somebody like me, especially that when I grew up, my mother was half Czechoslovakian and half Italian and unfortunately she didn't get the Italian gene when it came to the cooking. And so we had very everything was cooked with salt and boiled. And so for some things that you see here in France, oh, I go, Oh, no, I'm not that adventurous. I couldn't try that. And in doing the podcast and finding out more and more about specific ingredients and about specific dishes and where the history of it comes from, when I find good places that will do these dishes, you know, just for an example, today I was at our market and the local butcher that we have at the market, we have three different butchers come to the market every Wednesday here in Montmorillon. And the one that I went to, she had the jambon persillé in that she had faites maison. She had done her own version of it and it was cut up into little rectangle shapes and, and it just looked gorgeous. It had a pickled onion on top and a pistachio on top of each one individually. And it looked like something out of a patisserie, to be honest. But, you know, if you had said to me ten years ago that I would eat ham and something made of ham and parsley that was covered in jelly, that I would say, yeah, no, I'm not going to eat that. But we've done an episode on that in the series and that has given me the courage to go out. And when I see something like this, well, I have to have some. And that's what we had for lunch today and it was absolutely delicious.

Gary: It is really incredible. How. There is an ephemeral nature to food, both in terms of knowing its history makes you appreciate it more, but also how presentation makes it because of food, even though it doesn't really affect the taste or it shouldn't just having it look good. And if there's one thing that French cuisine is really mastered, I think it's making things look good. Have you been able to make your dishes just look appetizing, like they should be in a restaurant?

Andrew: People say it looks good, but I'm my own worst critic and I often think that it doesn't. I think that one of the bits of advice, though, given I like to do cooking classes here in France, and when I do do those, I'm always stressing to people that, you know, don't worry about the way that the food looks, as long as it tastes good. If you make a mistake, you know, plating up something or you know that there's it just doesn't look right to you. It doesn't look like what you see on Instagram. Well, you know what? A little tip, a little secret is that those people that are posting on Instagram, I know one a friend of mine, Molly, she does an amazing job. She was actually the very first person I interviewed on the podcast and we talked all about macarons. But Molly, you know, she's got this Instagram account and you look at it and you go, Why can't I create a cake like that? Why doesn't my macarons look like that? And the reason being is because Molly was a pastry chef before she started doing her classes. And, you know, when she was a pastry chef and she was making pastry, she was making thousands a day. When you're a chef in a restaurant, you're making hundreds of the same dish every day. That's why it looks perfect. That's why it's perfection. So I always say to people, don't worry about that. Don't worry about it, making it look absolutely perfect. As long as it tastes good, I'm sure it's going to be absolutely fine. So that's what I always say. I don't worry about the way it looks. I always say, actually, my food's a bit like me. It might not look pretty, but it sure does taste good. So, you know, don't worry about it.

Gary: All right? That is the perfect description. I wish I had thought of something like that myself. So can you tell us a bit how French cuisine and dishes have changed over the course of history? Are there any particular events or dates that you can point to that say that this definitely changed how French people ate?

Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. I think probably one of the most important things that happened. Well, actually, there's two that stick out to me. One would be the revolution, of course. And how that changed was when restaurants started was after the revolution. Before then there wasn't a case of having actual restaurants because most people, well most chefs, so to speak, worked for royal households or the bourgeois, you know, the I don't know what you would call them, you know what to call them, Gary. What would we call them, the rich before the revolution? Uh.

Gary: I mean, I guess. I guess you wouldn't it all be nobility because there was a rising, as you mentioned, bourgeoisie. Yeah. Guess just the rich in general.  All the rich, the nouveau riche, you know, the. The nobles of the rogue. You know, all those people who have more money than you.

Andrew: So they, they all had the chefs. The chefs weren't in restaurants. Chefs were working for them. And of course, when the French came along and cut all those people's heads off, all those chefs were out of work. And so they set up restaurants. And so that was one thing that definitely changed. I mean, that didn't change just French culinary history or French history that changed the world. That's why we all now have restaurants that we have today. But the second one that sticks to mind is the Expo. So the World Exhibition Expo has a bit of a softness in my heart because I remember as an Australian we were so excited to go to Brisbane for World Expo 88 in 1988 and I went as a 15 year old with my parents and it was the first time I was allowed to go off and do something by myself. So they just gave me money and let me go. And so I had a great time there. And of course, the world fair in Paris that they had well, that created the bouillon, which was a form of restaurant. But so. The idea behind it was how are we going to feed the masses of people that are coming for the exposition? So, you know, they've created the Eiffel Tower, they've got this big exhibition there. What are they going to do to feed them? And so they came up with the bouillon. So the bouillon is, as we know you might know it as a stock cube or a soup. And literally that's what it was. It was a restaurant that served soup to the masses. And then after the expo continued, that continued a trend. So those restaurants became popular in Paris, and then they started to add dishes to the soup. So you'd get just a, you know, a basic few things. But then and now to this day, you can go to Paris and you can still visit a traditional bouillon. There's about four, I would say, top of my head that I can think of about 5 or 6. And I know of two brand new ones that. Some young chefs have come up with the idea of recreating a classic bouillon as well. So next time I go to Paris, I'll have to check those out.

Gary: I should definitely learn more about food history. It's one of those subjects which I want to expand my repertoire in. I think the one thing that I know specifically about a change in food history and you'll have to correct me on this if I get it wrong, but I believe. That during the occupation of France, following the fall of Napoleon, when there were a bunch of foreign troops occupying France, I believe that the. Uh, essentially order of food changed because there was the French style where all of the dishes got brought out at once, but then a bunch of Russians came in and they would have one plate after another so that the plates wouldn't get cold or something that I'll have to check to be sure. I think that's the one food fact that I know. It seems so evident in hindsight to take out each dish one after another while it's still warm or cold or whatever it's supposed to be. But I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure that I'm not going to get proven wrong here. But that is a famous last word, if there is one.

Andrew: You know, you're you're semi, right

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Gary: Oh, no, thank you. Okay, Well, I'll take it.

Andrew: So where it comes from, you are. Yeah, I think you should take it. What it actually was, was, um. There was a famous chef called, uh, Marie-Antoine Carême, and he is famous for creating that system. So, as we know today, the system of, yes, as you said, like in the past, French food just all came out all at one time. And that's what people knew. But then he was asked to create a meal for Tsar I of Russia. And then when he did that, he created it as a course menu. So because that is sort of similar to the way that the Russians would eat. And so that's where the idea of courses came about. And the reason why I have to Google his name was that recently when I mentioned that before you thought that I was still in the UK, I'd been to Brighton. And when I was in Brighton, there's the Brighton Pavilion. And one of the amazing things is you can go into the kitchen in the Brighton Pavilion because that's where Marie-Antoine Carême was. He went over there and he actually cooked an amazing banquet for, I think it was the Tsar at the time. I think it was the Tsar visiting British royalty, from my understanding. And he cooked an amazing banquet there at the Brighton Pavilion.

Gary: Everything's connected and I for the record, I kind of got something right. So fantastic. I think to have only yeah, the only French chef that most people know about, aside from Ratatouille, would be there was a famous movie that starred Gérard Depardieu about the French chef who killed himself. Do you know who we're talking about?

Andrew: No, I don't. I have not heard of this.

Gary: All right. Well, we're going to skip this question.  Okay. Anyway, well.

Andrew: Actually, what I was going to say is, have you heard of Babette's Feast?

Gary: No, I have not.

Andrew: Oh, you need to. And your listeners need to find and research that movie. It's an amazing movie. It's, I think it was done in the oh, I want to say the 50s or 60s, maybe earlier. It may be later. But it's the story of a Frenchwoman that goes to I think it's Norway or somewhere very much a Nordic country or a village, maybe Finland. And she goes there to work for a family there or two women. And she works there. They cook and their cleaner. And then she stumbles upon and she finds out that she's won the lottery. And at that time, it wasn't you know, it's not like she won millions of dollars. I think it was a thousand francs or something along these lines. But what she did was she used that money. She'd been there so long and gotten to love the town and everybody in the little hamlet that she was in, but she missed her French food. And so what she did was that with the her lottery winnings, she went and bought all of this amazing French food and champagne and, you know, the all the things that are just the most decadent and best of France. She bought it and had it shipped to where she was, this small little town which had bad weather. And she cooked the whole town an amazing meal with her winnings, with her lottery winnings. And so I highly recommend. It's a fabulous movie. I'm pretty sure it's in black and white and. Yeah, it's Babette's feast.

Gary: How delightful. So you've mentioned a few famous dishes in French cuisine. Is there a particular dish of importance that stands out to you?

Andrew: Well, firstly, I just probably what I should say is that, you know, when you mentioned Ratatouille as being famous, the movie, which we all know, the Ratatouille, the cartoon movie, which made everybody the animation movie, which made it quite famous, that actually cook a ratatouille when they make that movie at the end, he doesn't actually cook Ratatouille. He cooks. Ah, they call it. Oh, I've completely forgot. We'll have to find that out and and pop it back in. I'll edit it in for you, but it's not an actual Ratatouille.

Gary:  Is a lie.       ?????

Andrew2: Either. I think that for me, probably the most important dish for me in French cuisine is the bourguignon. And the reason being, for me, I feel that it's sort of it's the epitome of what's good about French food. You know, it's a dish that, when done correctly or when done the way that it's supposed to be ,done is over a couple of days and it's always best eaten the day after. So, you know, it's a dish that you make a lot of and then you keep and and then you have it the next day as well as leftovers, which is a great thing that comes from many good French dishes that they're always better the longer it goes on. But also parts of it are used for other things. So when you go to Burgundy. And you have a bourguignon. They will often take the source from the Bourguignon and serve a poached egg in it as an entree. So it's an earth marinate and it's just delicious and an absolute revelation when you go to a really good restaurant and you have that. So, you know, it's sort of like, you know, when you have a Chinese Peking duck and they do the the Peking duck with the pancakes. And then you get a stir fry afterwards with the duck meat, and then they serve a soup from the duck bones. It's sort of a similar flavor to that. It's, you know, they're using parts of the dish to give you an entree as well. But the other thing that, the reason why I think it's important is that it's not just, you know. Like many things, different regions of France have a similar version dish to it. So, you know, you have a bourguignon , but it's only a bourguignon only if you're using Burgundy wine. And so it's like a coq au vin is with red wine. But if you go up north to Brittany, where they use a lot of cider, then it's a chicken cooked cider. If you go to the Alsace, it's a Coquille Riesling. So it's the chicken cooked with Riesling. So, yeah, so that's one of the things that I love about France is the different regions having their own version of a dish. And that to me is the most important thing because it's about sustainability. It's about, you know, just using seasonal ingredients. It's,  local products. That's what it's about, going and having a dish that you don't go to the South of France to have a bourguignon. You go to Burgundy.

Gary: Wise words to live by. So in the next couple of months, France is experiencing quite a few exciting things, including the Olympics, probably one of the biggest events. But there are others, such as the Rugby World Cup. Since so many people are going to be traveling to France. What is one dish that you could recommend that you say people would have to get when they go over there?

 Andrew: Well, gosh. That's a hard one. It depends on where they are. So, yes, actually right now is the Rugby World Cup. We're having that right now. And so that's all over the place. But obviously it's the yes, next year is the Olympics, which is going to be very exciting. And there's lots of different events happening in France between now and then. But if you're going to be in Paris and you're going to be in Paris for the Olympics, what's the one thing we should definitely try? One dish. But if you look, I think that maybe it's not so much one dish, but what I would encourage people to do and it's something, you know, whoever visits France, no matter where you are in France, is to have the menu de jure. So the menu of the day. And, you know, because what that represents is seasonality. It represents freshness, freshness of ingredients, especially if you're in an area and you see there's a local market. Then, you know, that's probably, if there's a restaurant on that market square. That's probably where they got their menu of the day from the actual market. So that's what I would highly suggest rather than just like one specific dish and you sorting that out. Because as I said, it's about regional. It's about where you are. If you're in Paris don't get a bourguignon get something that's very Parisian get the steak or fruits. If you're in Paris or go to bouillon and have a bouillon, have a soup, a French onion soup. Oh, yeah. But yes, I would get the menu de jour. So the menu of the day and also have it for lunch. That's what the French do. So you have a big lunch, you have your entree main and dessert for lunch as a menu de jour. It's not going to be a huge meal. It's going to be you know, there'll be smaller portions of it, but you'll be full and that'll be fabulous. And then for dinner, have cheese and salad like a true French person.  Absolutely.

Gary: Well, thank you for those recommendations. I am sure that your advice will make many people's trip quite magical.

Andrew: Well, I hope so. We'll and you know, of course, whatever you do, don't worry about doing it sensibly because as I always say, well, actually, my motto in life is, whatever you do, do it fabulously. But when you come to France, don't worry about how much you eat because you do so much walking, you'll just walk it off. I've never been on a French holiday to a holiday to France, where I've come back weighing more than I did when I left. So you always lose weight in France because you're eating fabulously. So don't worry about that.

Gary: They do know how to live.

Andrew: Well, I'm super excited, albeit a little bit nervous to be asking you questions because as I said, I'm well actually pretty much I'm, I'm fanboy boying here. I'm a big fan of the French history podcast. But what I wanted to ask you is when did you first find a love specifically for history?

Gary: Well, thank you for the compliments. I hope you are not too nervous. If anything, my own ego has been well kept in check by the fact that I am constantly corrected, usually with wrong information on my social media constantly, so I do not have such a grandiose vision of myself as far as when, when or how I came to love history for me. I personally think that mythology is the gateway drug to history. I grew up reading about Norse mythology and Greek mythology, and I really fell in love with mythologies all over the world and just these epic stories. And that to me is what drew me to history. It's really the stories I think I am a lot like most people and that I don't necessarily care about dates or about all those things that put you to sleep in history class. Although I've learned that many of those can be interesting if you're a good storyteller. But what draws me are the interesting characters that you find in history. And what's fascinating is that these people were real, at least most of them. You know, there were some creative liberties that some historians took, especially as you go further back in time, sometimes conflating multiple figures together. But the fact that so many of these remarkable figures like Joan of Arc, Alexander the Great, anyone you can think of, were real living people and many of them. Have an influence or had such a huge influence that the ripple effect is with us today. I think it's truly fascinating. And so the reason why I wanted to become a historian and eventually do a podcast is because I wanted to impart this love of history. And I think that if you do it well and if you know how to tell a good story, you can really get people, even those who claim that they don't really like history, interested in it. And what gives me a lot of hope recently is the success of Oppenheimer, because here you have a movie which for the most part is just about a bunch of nerds talking about physics, and yet it's made almost $1 billion because people recognize that. Well, first of all, it's a very interesting movie. I mean, here you have this radical libertine communist who ended up heading the nuclear bomb project, but also he's just a, it's so important to our world that people really connected to it. And so I think being able to have the ability to tell a story and get people interested is something that is very important to history itself and our conceptions of it.

Andrew: Yeah, one of the things that really resonates with me with your podcast is specifically that you, I just listen to your podcast today and you were talking about what's coming up and you know, in, in the podcasts and you were saying about how you've got a book that's coming out and it's an academic book. And as I mentioned in the first part of this episode, I was here with my husband, who did a PhD and turned the PhD into an academic book. So I know what they are like. But, you with the podcast and the guests that you have on, you have a way of turning, you know, academia into something that the everyday, like I mean, I'm an everyday listener. I'm not a huge academic. I didn't go to university, but I love listening to your stories the way that you and your guests, when they have their own episodes, bring these stories down. How did you, how did that nak come about of turning something that is more of an academic subject into something that the everyday listener can appreciate as well as academics, I'm assuming as well.

Gary: Well, thank you very much again for the glowing review. I think that every person should aspire to be able to explain even the most complex topics in a way that can be understood. I think the sciences really has a good example of this. In people like Richard Feynman. If you go to YouTube, there's a great video of him explaining how fire works. And it's really fascinating because if you, I think if you ask just the average person, how does fire work, I think that kind of blows their minds because we aren't really taught the chemical process. But once you know that, it's at least the way he explained it, that it's just basically a reverse of what made. and he used the example of burning logs, that it's basically the reverse of everything that made that log, that it's the energy from the photosynthesis. It's all the taking, the carbon in the air, and then it's releasing it that when you have someone who can explain things so simply, then you can get those sort of aha moments that every teacher is looking for. Same thing, by the way, if we're talking about sciences, someone like Carl Sagan. So there have been a lot of great science communicators. I think in history it's kind of a mixed bag because on the one hand I think that there is a lot of love for history because there are a lot of great storytellers. Then on the other hand, there's a lot of dry academia. And then of course we have to deal with Hollywood, which sometimes gets it really right with Oppenheimer. But then other times we've got, I don't know, some stuff like 300, which is about a bunch of shirtless men in thongs fighting against the endless hordes from Persia. But out in either way, I think that if you really want to be able to teach history, you have to be able to take even these most complex topics and explain them in a way that everyone can understand. Because I think that inevitably, I think most people can understand these things, even the most potentially problematic things. So, for example, so I'll tell you a little story about someone who, this had a huge impact on my thinking. I had a professor. He graduated from Stanford University.  This man's name is Dr. Alexander Bay. He is a very fascinating figure because he was born and raised in Oregon like myself. He is something like a six foot five Irish guy. I mean, Irish American, but he's bright red hair. And he went over to Japan and he became a professional kickboxer. Then he decided to go back to the United States, went to Stanford, got his PhD, and he. Uh, he decided to research disease in Japan with a particular emphasis on disease relating to sewers and to sanitation systems. And as a professor, he was constantly making poop jokes. He was constantly making jokes about, you know, all that stuff. And so for the most part, we kind of didn't take him seriously because he was kind of a troll. And years later, many, many years later, I had to interview him for graduate school. And I asked him, you know, how did you decide to study crap for your life? And his response was that. The reason why is because all human civilization can be studied by a person's proximity to human waste. That if you look at it from the beginning of time those who were on the lower ends of power were those who had to deal with human waste, either by using it for agriculture or they would be disposing of it. And because they would be disposing of it, they would be the lower castes, they would be despised, the lower class. Whereas those who were the farthest away from it, those were the ones who were at the height of power, at the height of wealth. And so up until modern sanitation has filtered down to even the lowest classes. Basically, you could measure human society, politics, wealth, art, all these things by a person's proximity to waste. And when he said that, my mind was just blown and I thought, this is the deepest shit I've ever heard, this is incredible. So it's that sort of thing where, you know, if there's something that you bring forward, but then and it might seem so simple on the surface, but you can lead people down to see this giant iceberg, as it were. I think that that's sort of the magic of being a historian.

Andrew: Yeah, that is fabulous. We have to talk about other things, but I do think that we could continue on here for at least another half an hour about about waste and and human crap. But we need to move on from that. But that is fabulous. I understand that totally. Um, how did you, Gary, then come to fall in love with France and French history.

Gary: So. I fell in love with France as an idealization because I was experiencing my teenage years during the Bush administration and there was a lot of pessimism and disillusionment that I was feeling that I think a lot of Americans were feeling. Now, at the time, though, France was leading the anti-Iraq war peace movement. And so I think a lot of Americans at the time started to idealize France as this country of culture and sophistication and smart people that had figured it all out. And so I went over to France and I did the whole thing. I got a beret, I was eating baguettes. I was doing the typical thing. And it's only after having traveled there and even lived there for a year that eventually I came to realize that, okay, this is a country like many other countries. This is not some utopian place where they just hand out pain au chocolat chocolate or chocolatine if you're a chocolatine heretic, you know, this is you know, this is a country like any other. So I definitely came in with a bit of false ideas. But even still, I did fall in love with France. I think that when you go over there and you learn that it has just this fascinating history and that it's had such a huge impact on the world, it's truly a remarkable thing. And for me, what was so great to learn about France and stuff that I've learned in the podcast is just how deep the history goes. Because I think when a lot of people think about France, they think about the Middle Ages, they think about the Renaissance, the French Revolution. They basically think about all that stuff. I mean, it's so ingrained in our popular culture. If you look at a video game like Civ six, France gets a big bonus for making medieval wonders as if that's when it really came into its flowering, which I mean, I guess in fairness, you know, France really did sort of rise up during that period. But I think a lot of people don't know that there are megalithic structures in western France that are thousands of years older than the pyramids are. Not only that, but the best preserved cave paintings in the whole world are in southern France, dating to 40,000 years ago. This is a country that has an incredible history that is so much more than just Napoleon and so being able to see just how much this topic gets deeper and deeper the more you try to research it and there's always something more to learn about. It has really been a remarkable experience for me.

Andrew: That time that you were living here, how is that experience?

Gary: So, recently I did an episode on the history of the Louvre and in particular the remaking of the Grand Louvre under the 1980s, Francois Mitterrand and Yao Ming Pei plan. And Pei has this fantastic quote where he says that in China, China has this remarkable history going back thousands and thousands of years. And yet history is history that essentially because of the communist revolution and all of the upheaval, there is this idea of a separation between super modern China, which you see in the skyscrapers and in all of the things that are happening today in China and then its great past. Whereas Pei said that he talks to people on the street who act as if they just saw Louis the 14th that day. And so there is this remarkable continuation and blend of history that I feel that you get in France that is so unlike most other places. There might be a couple of places like I think I felt the same feeling in Italy. But what's amazing is just how you can walk down, cobble streets and then stand in front of a skyscraper. There's this amazing,  when I was in Tour, Tour is a pretty, pretty tech friendly city. There's been some, you know, big esports venues there. And yet if you go there, you can just wander down the street and see Saint Martin's, which was one of the holiest sites in all of Europe during the early medieval period. And so there is this great natural blending of history and of a living, breathing society that I think is truly remarkable. And that makes living in France such a special experience such a special feeling, especially as an American. Because the thing about being in the United States and I'm not bashing the United States, I love America, a great place, greatest, most awesome, wonderful country in the world, and everyone else is just jealous of us. But, you know, the thing about the United States is that anything that is even even remotely famous has a gift shop. Whereas I was trying to find the Saint Martin of Tour and I was doing the dumb American tourist thing and I got lost. And I couldn't help but think, you know, where is this church? Even as the church bells were ringing not far from me, but eventually I put two and two together, followed the bells and got to this church. And you get to go down and see the tomb of one of the most famous saints in France. And it's just open. And, you know, nobody's there. There are no other tourists. And that's really magical, especially as an American. That's a really magical experience. And I think that a lot of people, if you only go to Paris and if you only go to the Eiffel Tower, you know, Momota and all these other hyper tourist places. You know, my advice is get out a little bit, go to Saint-Denis, go to all of these other places which are still incredible and worth seeing in their own right, but aren't necessarily, you know, on everyone's Instagram because that is being able to be part of the living France is just remarkable.

Andrew: Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that. And especially Saint-Denis, you know, I mean, hopefully well, not hopefully, but I'm sure that the area will change with the Olympics because they're doing a lot of work around there, but it doesn't have the best reputation. And then, you know, often people will say, you know, oh, no, you can't go to Saint-Denis. You know, it's not it's not the best area. But when you go to Saint-Denis, it's possibly one of the most important places to go to. I did a tour in Paris, brought over Australians and Americans actually in 2015, and I took them to Saint-Denis because it is one of the most important places to go. And the church is literally or cathedral,  it is literally right at the station there. So you are just getting on the metro, you're getting to the station, you get out, there's a square there and you go and you visit this place. That was where all the kings and queens were buried. It's, you know, just one of the most amazing places to go and see. And you should totally do that when you go to Paris. So I'm so glad you mentioned that because it's one of the most important places, I think. And I often I don't know how if you get this experience when you talk to French people, but one of the fabulous things I love about talking to the French people when I have a guest on the show that is an expert on a topic, but I try to interview and get to know them and get our audience to know a little bit about them. And I love it when they're so just blasé about the fact that they, you know, they have a 12th century chateau in their town that they walk past every day to go to school. It's like, we don't have that, do we, Gary?

Gary: Well, not where I live.

Andrew: Well, actually, I do now, but I didn't when I was growing up.

Gary: Um, not a lot of chateaux in Australia.

Andrew: No. Well, I think this is probably a few replicas being built, but no, there's no, there's no actual chateaux in Australia, thankfully. Um, okay. I wanted to ask you a question and because just from my own knowledge, but if you know of any historians that are specifically have studied French food out there and I mean, because I've listened to many of your podcast episodes, but I can't think of any if there have been anybody that's come on the show to talk specifically about French food?

Gary: I do not.  And that is, I think, one of the big gaps which I've been trying to fill in the podcast. I think that the history of food is becoming so much more important and it is becoming a fast growing field because people are realizing how crucial it is to just human existence. But I think that. Previously. It's been a very difficult thing for a lot of people to write about simply because obviously of food's ephemeral nature. I mean, just the fact that it's not going to leave behind any serious residue has been this big block towards people writing about it. It's sort of like another field, which I think really got kicked off in the 1980s by French historians, the Annalistes, was the history of emotions something which is a really fascinating topic because I know people don't tend to think about the ideas like emotions evolving. But it is an interesting question whether or not how we experience emotions have changed with history. And I think one of the big questions, which goes back to at least the 1970s with Lawrence Stone, is the argument over whether or not parents were more attached to their children at a time when half of them would die before the age of ten, with some historians saying that, well, because death was so common and child death was so common that parents back in the 1500s would essentially not get attached to children. And when they died, it wasn't that big of a deal. And their arguments in part is that they would name so many children the same thing. Like they would name a child, Louis and then Xavier and then Charles. But then they would name, say, the fourth child. Louis, because, well, there's a good chance that this, you know, our first Louis is going to die or one of the Louis. And so you have so many children who have the same name because there's this expectation that they're going to die. But then you have other historians who say that, you know. Yeah, death might have been common, but the death of a child is always such a huge part of a parent's life that even if society is different, they're still going to feel the same thing. So there are quite a few. Uh, fields of history like food, emotions, the history of animals, that sort of thing, which I really want to incorporate into the podcast and which I'm always on the lookout for guests who might add to it. But as of this time, food is not my forte. Um, that's why you're here.

Andrew: I know, I know. Well, I'll continue on that. Gary, who is your favorite person in French history, and why are they your favorite person?

Gary: Not Napoleon, not to disappoint all of the Napoleon fans out there. But I think that just because of all of this research that I have done and just making history, my life, I gravitate more towards characters that a lot of people don't necessarily know and which aren't that famous. I think that there are, particularly because I've been doing work in the medieval period, I think that there are a lot of fascinating Norman characters who went out adventuring. So for example, someone like Robert Guiscard who left Normandy as this poor petty noble, but then he ended up ruling the southern half of Italy. I think that's really fascinating otherwise, because my specialty is actually in World War I France. I have become particularly fond of this character, Alphonse Merrheim, who was the public enemy number one for the French government because he was a leading far left socialist who was constantly advocating for peace, which the French government did not appreciate at a time when they were locked in this epic struggle against Germany. And, you know, I can I can see why, but it's learning about him is a pretty fascinating thing, just because of how the French government tried to balance its public perception that on the one hand, it wanted to do everything to silence this person, but on the other hand, the government worried that, okay, if we just lock this person up, then that's going to demoralize the public. And so that really plays into this book, which I have coming out, which is all about how France and Britain balanced controlling their populations with also allowing them a certain degree of freedom. And so it's characters like that, particularly those that are caught up in larger events that I think are the really fascinating characters. Obviously, there's a place for people like Napoleon or Louis the 14th, who are so often the drivers of great events, but maybe it's just because I love a good Greek tragedy, but it's nice to see those figures who are themselves, despite their heroic efforts, are doomed by the world they live in.

Andrew: You asked me about food and what people should try if they're coming to France over the next year or so. What's the one place that you want to go to in France?

Gary: So what I would recommend is anywhere you go, rather than just tell you you have to go to this place or go to this place, I'm going to recommend a resource. And that resource for those who haven't used it is Atlas Obscura. For those who don't know what that is, Atlas Obscura is basically like TripAdvisor, but it's for things that are not as famous and not as well known. And some of my all time greatest experiences have been from Atlas Obscura. So, for example, if you go to TripAdvisor and you click on Paris, you're going to get the Eiffel Tower or the Louvre, you know, which are all great and all worth going to. But if you go to Atlas Obscura, then  you'll get to find Nicolas Flamel’s family's house, which is the legendary alchemist who supposedly made the Philosopher's Stone. And I guess he was a real person. I am not so convinced that he actually achieved any of that magic stuff, but he apparently he was a real person and you can visit his house today. And so that was really amazing. So everywhere you go, I recommend using Atlas Obscura because I'm sure that if you visit, you know, Paris and Marseille, you'll hit the big sites. But if you want those hidden gems that a lot of other people have been there haven't seen, I think that is really what makes a trip. So that is what I would recommend is that get out there and find the special things that you can. Brag about to your friends that they had no idea even existed.

Andrew: Gary, this has been absolute pleasure, but I wanted to ask finally the question that I ask everybody that's been on Fabulously Delicious, my podcast, the French Food podcast, and Gary, that is what to you is the most fabulous thing about France?

Gary: That is a good one. I think that the most fabulous thing is probably that there's always something more to it, that anything that I've researched in anything that I've experienced, there is always some amazing thing that you wouldn't expect. I think that when a lot of people think about France, they often think about this sort of woodsy European area. And yet if you go down to the south where I lived for a year, you can see flamingos, you can see if you go to Camargue, you can see bulls and wild horses. And it really has this almost Spanish feel to it. There's also so much of a cross-cultural feel to not just in, say, the big cities, but if you go to Alsace-Lorraine, you get such a almost German feel. And this you can go to Big Chateaux and through the cities and it feels like you're going through this tiny German burg. It's really amazing. And then you kind of get a similar feel if you go to the southeast of France where it's virtually Italian, that there's just so much to France that a lot of people don't know or don't expect. And traveling from one area to another will always lead you to some new dish, some new history or something, some new art style, something great. And I have not reached a point where I have ever been bored with France and I don't think I ever will.

Andrew: That's fabulous. No, I don't think I ever will either. And if you do get to a point  that happens, just give me a call and you will have to come over here and I'll make you a dish. And then. And then we'll have some wine and some cheese, and then you'll be back into France again.

Gary: Sounds like a plan. I would love nothing more than to do that.

Andew: Gary, thank you so much for this chat. This has been great and I can't wait for my audience to get to know you a lot more from this and we'll have to do this again another time. This has been fabulous. I'm sure I can talk to you for a lot longer than half an hour.

Gary: If you can stand me, then. Sure. And thank you for having me on.

Andrew: Merci Beaucoup

Gary: Au revoir

Andrew: Au revoir