The French in Modern Haiti with David Ritter

Gary: Today's special episode is an interview with David Ritter. Ritter is a documentarian who has produced various projects on ethnic minorities and communities throughout the world. He has produced projects on Haitian and Jamaican cultural history. In 2015, he began working with Armenian and Assyrian communities in Iraq, documenting their history and heritage as well as their contemporary struggles against persecution. His documentary Havresc Stand on Courage, documents the history and contemporary life of Armenian and Assyrian Iraqi people in the northern region of Iraq. Today, we are talking about the ethnic French population of Haiti from the revolution to present. Thank you so much for being on the show, David Ritter. Can you tell us about your work with French and Haitian history?
David: Yeah, well, I guess it starts, um, approximately 2008 or 9. Um, even further back than that. Um, you know, I had moved back to the West Indies. I was in Jamaica for a while, and I always noticed that when I met, say, missionaries, NGO workers, tourists, whatever it might be, they found this extreme shock when they met Jamaicans of non-African lineage. If you are white or Asian. The first question is, well, where are you from? And if someone responded, well, I'm from here, they would say, where are you really from? You know this. This question would continue to go down this line of you couldn't actually be from said nation state. You couldn't be from a primarily black country because there's a perception that Haiti or Jamaica or places within the West Indies do not include people of, say, um, uh, European or, uh, Asian derivation. That's kind of the mindset a lot of people have been locked in, I found throughout the years. So there's this ignorance, and I don't say ignorance pejoratively. I say ignorance in a general sense of lack of knowing, uh, from people throughout the world that if you go to places like Haiti or Jamaica, that, yeah, primarily you'll find a country that's, uh, very influenced culturally by African heritage and the people genetically of African heritage. But you'll also find minorities and people who are remnants from colonial periods, descendants of the French, of the British, of various other, uh, groups of migrants or colonial groups from the past. And, um, I thought this would be an amazing project to undergo was to record the minority groups throughout the West Indies, throughout places like Jamaica and like Haiti. And, uh, that kind of got me on a program that I began called the Forgotten Faces Project and Documenting the descendants of migrants and immigrants and colonials from days gone by to show that they're not actually completely gone, that if you go to the French colonies from the 16, 17, 1800s, the descendants are still there. They're still the grandchildren and great grandchildren and great great grandchildren of people. And the culture as well, has been living on and most certainly in Haiti. That is still the case.

Gary: There was an incredible amount of violence in Haiti during the revolution. After roughly two centuries of enslavement, many black Haitians took out their anger and indiscriminately killed anyone with white skin. So, as you say, how did French people either survive in the country or even then immigrate to it after the Haitian Revolution? How did they fit in to this new country's economy and culture?

David: Well, you know, there's some great work that's been done by someone that I worked with closely. Um, when I was documenting the, um, minorities of Haiti was, uh, Peter Frisch. He's a Haitian historian. He's of, uh, French, Haitian and German derivation. And he did a lot of work on this, and he wrote some books. And I really recommend people to go read up on some work from, uh, Peter Frisch where he documented this quite well. Uh, and it's that, yes, there was the revolution of 1804. And during this revolution, it did, eventually include a mass genocide, a killing of the white population, specifically targeting the French. Um, and, you know, the narrative is, is that, um, under this, uh, revolution, all whites were killed and that that was the end of it. There were every single one were wiped out. But that's not really the whole story. Um, there was a lot of dichotomies during that time period, and there were different founding fathers. There were different revolutionaries who had different perspectives. There was Christophe, there was, uh, Pétion, known as Papa Bon-Cœur, “Father Goodhart,” uh, as he was known because he was much more of a benevolent individual, seen, at least seen as benevolent by many people in the country. And uh, Pétion, who was of, uh, French derivation himself. He was mixed race, um, but had a French father. He didn't hold a hatred towards whites. In fact, he got a lot of whites evacuated, and he actually was able to protect a large portion, I shouldn't say a large portion, but a certain portion of the, um, French population who resided in, uh, the region of Pétion and Fond-des-Blancs and various areas in the south. Um, and even Jean-Jacques Dessalines, who very much was, uh, behind the mass slaughter. He was very much one of those people who was, um, focused on that. He and he made statements of, you know, to kill all whites, uh, you know, small and large, rich and poor. That was his statements. Kill them, you know, kill all whites where you see them, basically. But even he protected certain numbers of, uh, the French population, uh, specifically doctors, um, engineers, educators, certain people that he saw that were essential to maintain the infrastructure of the country and to maintain some stability, because he wanted people who are still going to have those skills that could be taught to the general population, that could be utilized to maintain infrastructure. So for from the 1800s, from 1804 onward, a white population has remained and mainly of French descent within Haiti, and that carried right on to this day in the 20th century. People. There are people descended of those French. Many are mixed race at this point. Um, people they call the mulatto, um, population. I know it was very politically incorrect in a lot of parts of the world, unless you utilize that word, but it's still utilized in Haiti, meaning people who are mixed race of European and primarily French and African descent, and even people who are primarily or fully of of European descent, Peter Frisch being one of them. His, uh, his heritage goes all the way back to the founding of the country. And prior to that he had French descendants, um, ancestry, I should say, going, uh, all the way back to the 1700s.

Gary: How has this ethnically French group of people evolved and developed within Haiti over the centuries. So moving from the revolution towards more towards the present, because Haiti has undergone quite a lot of turmoil and upheaval throughout the past couple of centuries.

David: Yeah. Well, I mean, and as also answer your prior question, what was their place in the society? I mean, obviously a lot of them were professionals, academics, so on and so forth. And that is kind of been the case for the majority of people of French, Haitian derivation, um, those who are fully or primarily of French Haitian derivation or even a mixed descent or usually of the business class. And that is there's very much a, a social stratification in the country, but it also does tend to go across some color lines and racial lines where a lot of people are expected. If you're if you're not black, if you're not of primarily or fully of African descent, you're kind of seen as someone who should be a part of a business class or a mercantile class or something of that nature. Um, you know, this is this is shifted, obviously, you know, as you've said, there's been major changes in the country from the 1800s onward. There's been times of stability and upward mobility, and then there's been major collapses and turmoil politically and economically and especially right now, I'm sure if anyone's watched the news, they've seen that Haiti is and a lot of disarray at this moment as well. Um, but the the French descended population has generally, uh, a lot of them have found themselves more in the business class. And that's kind of where you're expected to be, though it's not the case for everyone. I've, you know, like any demographic in this world, you find some diversity in dichotomies. Um, but, you know, you'll find a lot of people to be a part of the entrepreneurs. And, you know, major industry captains of industry and those types of things which they call the elite. Um, with that being said, not all people of French descent are of the elite. You will find you could find people in the working class, middle class, and so on. Uh, the bourgeoisie, the bourgeoisie who are more like supervisors and managers, hoteliers, um, not everyone who is of the French lineage is necessarily a political or someone who's of a major economic elite background. So there's always going to be dichotomies and, uh, you know, varied, varied backgrounds amongst all the different individuals you find.

Gary: How have relations been between white and black Haitians in the recent past.
David: In the, you know, recent past up to today? Um, you know, that's a question it's never very easy to answer because there's so many different people. When you're talking about a country of 8 million or more people, there's many different perspectives. Um, but most certainly there has been, uh, a lot of, um, a lot of, uh, I would say a lack of a better term. How can I put it? Bigotry? That is prejudice. Um, there is a sense that a lot of the general population has is that if you are white, that you are not somebody who has a great care for the general population and that somehow you're at odds with them. There are some people who just posted some Haitians who've posted, um, a few videos. I can send you some links with them later where they're basically saying that they feel that the white population of Haiti is only out to exploit them and to take from them, and that they are somehow a net negative element of the country. That's something that many people have been vocal about. A lot of media, both outside and internal media, has referred to the Haitian elite, which, as I said, many are of the White and French derivation. They've been referred to as the mirror or the most repugnant elite by many people, because they've just found that this is a population that, um, has exploited the general population. That's that's the general feeling, um, that many people have had in media. And that's a feeling that resonates with a lot of the black Asian population. With that being said, you can meet numerous white Haitians and black Haitians who are wonderful friends. They get along, you know, there's a lot of camaraderie. Most French descended Haitians simply want to be seen as Haitian. They want that. That's the core identity at this point after generations. With that being said, many people may have an affection or some connection to their French ancestry, but, um, there is um, there's great camaraderie in many circles. Um, a lot of this, again, can boil down more on economic and social lines. Um, but there is most certainly, I found to be a lot of animosity that has existed towards the white Haitian population. Um, when you have, you know, many people living in abject poverty of, you know, more than 45% of the population, that's a very conservative estimate, live in abject poverty. Um, and then you have a tiny demographic of people who have, you know, extreme wealth, multimillionaires in some cases. Um, and then even if the even if you have the middle class or the upper middle class, then you appear to be quite wealthy when you're compared to people who are living on less than a dollar a day, right? You have this animosity that definitely exists. And, um, there are things in Haiti like a white person taking a taptap or a public transit tap taps or kind of a bus system. You jump on a pickup truck. It's seen as eccentric that white people shouldn't be taking a bus or being on a tap, tap, or with the general population. They should be in their own SUV. They should be somewhat removed from the general population. And that's kind of embedded in the psyches of people. This is the kind of the environment that it is that there's this big separation and stratification. With that being said, at the same time, if you go to a nightclub, if you go to a discotheque, if you go to a restaurant or a bar White Asians are not necessarily segregating themselves. You'll find that they'll sit with people of all different ethnic and racial derivation white, black, mixed race, Middle Eastern, and everyone will be together. Um, but in the general population, no, you don't generally see, um, the white population living exactly the same for the most part. Again, there are exceptions to this.

Gary: In addition to studying the ethnically French Haitian population, you also study the influence of French architecture in Haiti. Can you share your insights on this subject with our listeners, and perhaps even recommend a website which may have photos of these French Haitian buildings.

David: Well, I'll be uploading, uh, my, uh, still photography, um, doing some slideshows on my YouTube channel. If you go to Forgotten Faces 001 or David Ritter on YouTube, and you'll find where I've done my projects on the, um, French and white Haitian population primarily, I actually pan the minority groups of of Haiti. Um, but you'll also find are still uh still photograph uh slideshow. I'll be publishing on this and I went throughout the northern Haiti in Cap-Haitien. Well, actually, there's a great deal of French architecture from the 19th century and even sometimes earlier than that. It's going far back as the 1700s. Uh, and you'll find some mansions, some buildings that are still standing to this day. Um, most of it's quite dilapidated at this point. There has been some preservation in port au Prince in the south, where there's been some amazing gingerbread homes, and some of them now function as hotels. Some of them are historic landmarks, some of them have been well preserved, most of them have been quite dilapidated with everything going on. Um, and that's, that's a very sad thing. You know, you look around in these beautiful works of art, these beautiful buildings of many of them are in ruins, but many of them are, even though they may be more rundown on dilapidated, are still in function. People run businesses from them. People rent them out, live in them. Um, you'll see that many of them are still well utilized. Um, I would say the majority of that preservation, I wouldn't even call it preservation, just the existence of them. You can find quite a amongst in the, uh, Cap-Haitien, Haiti, in the north. Um, I definitely there are there are a lot of, uh, historic sites that have been neglected, even vandalized. And I would say some of that going back to the animosity against the French colonial rule that has been, uh, I think, a lack of, um, an intentional lack of preservation of some of those things.

Gary: That is Forgotten Faces with David Ritter. Uh, so be sure to check that out. Thank you very much for being on the show.
David: You for having me, Gary. I appreciate it. And I hope, um, your listeners and people can take some recognition of, uh, a lot of French heritage and history that is dwindling throughout the world. Um, and not just French. There's a lot of European colonial remnants that are still existing to this day, and I would like to document more of them before they are completely forgotten. And they do fade away permanently.

Gary: Well, thank you so much for your work. 

David: Thank you. 

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