The Unseen Kingdom, France & Cambodia with Dr. Matthew Jagel

Gary: Today's special episode is an interview with Doctor Matthew Jagel. Jagel is a diplomatic historian focusing on the United States and Southeast Asia during the Cold War. His academic monograph with Cornell University Press, Khmer Nationalist: Sun Ngoc Thanh, the CIA and the Transformation of Cambodia, was the result of extensive research in various U.S. and overseas archival holdings, including a year at the Cambodian National Archives on a Fulbright Fellowship. It examines the career of Cambodian nationalist Son Ngoc Thanh, his influence on the growth of nationalism in Cambodia, and his relationship with the United States. He has also written about the role of the Philippines in the war in Vietnam. He is currently instructor of History at Saint Xavier University and co-host of the podcast Napalm in the Morning: The Vietnam War through film.

Our episode covers the first part of his book, which details the history of the French colony of Cambodia. An oft-overlooked part of the French Empire, Cambodia was the regional breadbasket that furnished French troops in Vietnam. It was also a land of great prestige for whoever held it, given its historic temples with Angkor Wat being the most famous of them all. In what follows, Jagel explains how France conquered, lost, retook, and finally lost once again this Southeast Asian country. Why she has been forgotten.

Thank you very much for being on the show, Dr. Jagel. You have a very interesting and very niche topic you talk about specifically Cambodia. Now, when most people think about conquered territories within the global French empire, they think about Haiti, Algeria, Vietnam and maybe Syria and probably Senegal thrown in there, for more of the historians. Your book deals with an oft-overlooked part of the French Empire, Cambodia. What led you to write about Cambodia and its struggle for independence?

Jagel: Sure. Thanks very much.  I was raised by, loosely, we'll call them hippies.  My parents came of age kind of during the war in Vietnam and that kind of culture, music, film, etc., was kind of just always a sort of a thing that was just sort of around when I was kind of growing up.  My dad went to high school in Japan during the war as well.  So that was always kind of a thing in the background. And so when I was going to school, kind of thinking about projects, things I'm interested in, I'm interested in this time period. I'm interested in kind of the role of the United States in Asia and Southeast Asia. Vietnam, a lot of great work has been done on that. Let's maybe a diversion that maybe it's related, but it's also in some ways more new and less looked at. And so that brought me to Cambodia. And being a graduate student at Northern Illinois University, with the center for Southeast Asian Studies there, which is title six from the Department of Education. One of the very few in the world that has such a focus and has the language for Khmer, which is very rare to have. And so that gave me a lot of resources, a lot of great professors, Clymer as well, who's written quite a bit on Cambodia.  So, I felt like I had a good springboard to go off of for diving deep into Cambodia and the United States and what that relationship was like, roughly speaking, the period, Second World War up until 1975.

Gary: Let's set the stage a bit. Can you explain some of the basics, such as why France conquered Cambodia in 1863? What Cambodia meant for France, how France initially administered the territory, and then what Cambodia was like under French rule.

Jagel: Sure. Cambodia, The Khmer Empire for hundreds of years, really the jewel of Southeast Asia, really prominent, powerful empire, most famously with Angkor Wat in Siem Reap. And that empire kind of slowly began to kind of crumble and was eventually crushed in 1431, sacked by Thailand. And after that, Cambodia suffered a continued decline over the next several centuries, really losing territory on the West side, Siam on the east side, Nguyen dynasty, kind of becoming more powerful in Vietnam. So following the establishment of a French colony and Cochinchina in 1862, it was actually an outreach on the part of the Cambodian King Norodom to request that France establish a protectorate there to kind of, feared that Cambodia is going to be swallowed up by its neighbors on both both sides.  So a resident general would have most power in Cambodia, in the protectorate.  Under the agreement, the monarchy would remain. France would really be in charge of kind of the economy, trade, foreign policy, foreign relations, military things of that nature. But France makes an agreement with Siam to sort of cede the western provinces of Battambang. Battambang is in Cambodia. It is kind of touches Thailand on the west.  And Siem Reap, which is sort of a northwestern province. That's where many of the famous Angkor temples are, including Angkor Wat.  So that agreement is made. France it sort of seems like, okay, we've got this plan set out. Cambodia, in theory is happy because they're not going to be swallowed up. France is happy because they have this buffer state in between what they're most concerned with, which is Cochinchina and Thailand. Well, Siam at the time. And so in theory that's at the outset the idea.  There is a war, Franco-Siamese war, the provinces, these, we are going to switch back a few times. So you have to keep attempt to keep track.  Battambang, Siem Reap switch back following, they are seated back to the Cambodian protectorate following the French victory there. But these kind of border issues there, this is one of the staples of my full book.  These tensions that exist between Cambodia and Siam later Thailand. Those are going to continue on for a lot of the the rest of the story, in this sort of earlier era. Cambodia is not seen as important as Vietnam. There were attempts to introduce French language in schools. French culture. It is not to the same extent that you see in Vietnam education levels, or lack thereof. It's probably one of the reason that there are fewer sort of nationalistic sort of outbursts than you might see in Vietnam, for example. But similar to what we see in Vietnam, many of those that did receive higher education, they’d study in France, they’d return to Cambodia, and they may have some of these more hardened nationalistic pride aspirations.  They've learned about things like self-determination and democracy and stuff like that, and they sort of bring these ideas back with them. That's kind of sort of setting the stage, I think, for the rest of the story.

Gary: Certainly enough for the next part. You write briefly about how France conquered Cambodia in 1863 and almost immediately faced resistance. The following year, Buddhist monks led the first Great Uprising, which failed, though long afterwards Buddhist monks were crucial to the anti-colonial movement. Why were these indigenous holy men a core of the anti-French struggle?

Jager:  So, there's the first and second grade uprising. The second great uprising, roughly 20 or so years after the first one. Largely those are in response to a growing French attempts to assert power.  Governor general being really the most powerful figure in the protectorate, attempts to reduce the power of the king.  The first one has to do with kind of issues of taxation and things like that as well. But throughout this, monks were and are revered figures in Khmer society. And so therefore they could command a degree of following. So, for example the first grade uprising happens very quickly after the protectorate is sort of established, it is not in any way successful, but it is maybe a glimpse into sort of what is to maybe come later.  I would say that these are kind of initial, sporadic periods of revolt that on the whole are fairly minimal. And it's not until you get to the 20th century that in many ways, via Khmer monks, that a more nationalist Khmer form of both Buddhism and resistance is kind of conceived.

Gary: Your book focuses on one central figure, Son Ngoc Thanh. Can you talk about Thanh's background and his experiences, both in France and as part of French controlled Cambodia?

Jagel: Sure. And you may notice that his name is not a Khmer name. It is a Vietnamese name. He is born in, Cochinchina, in Trà VinhProvince. He is his half Khmer, half Sino Vietnamese. He is born in 1908. So he's part of this French Colonial slash protectorate empire in Indochina. And he has, I would say, it seems like he has a relatively decent upbringing in terms of, economic stability. He is able to go to schools. He studies in France. He returns from France, much like I was sort of hinting at before with, I think some of these ideas sort of percolating in his head, more nationalistic sort of ideas. He works in various sort of jobs as a prosecutor and various things. But he works at the Buddhist Institute, which is formed, founded in Phnom Penh capital in Cambodia. And it is there and through that, that he starts this sort of outreach, to sort of more nationalistic looking outreach. And one of the vehicles for doing that is the establishment of Nagaravatta, which is a really a political paper, newspaper basically, which circulation grows fairly quickly to over 5000. And it is there that he is sort of pushing this sort of nationalistic Buddhism, Khmer Buddhism, these sort of ideas, pushing them out there. He really attempts to kind of work with the laity, the monk population, to kind of search out who is, maybe onboard more of a nationalistic sort of sentiment, use them as vehicles for recruitment into these ideas. And so, it starts small. Over time, he becomes more, let's say, problematic for French officials in Phnom Penh. And he's kind of bused around and, and sent to sort of an outer province at a certain point to kind of get him out of the capital. But even there, he kind of continues through these Sisowath schools. They're known as where he's again continuing to recruit. And this is going to sort of continue. At this point we're in the mid late 1930s and this is kind of as the Second World War is approaching us. So things are going to kind of ratchet up I guess once that begins.

Gary: Central to the Cambodian nationalist movement was the Japanese conquest of Southeast Asia in World War Two. The Cambodian experience defies the Western idea of the axis forces as a totalitarian force, crushing all other countries and indigenous peoples, while the allies supposedly represented freedom and democracy. Many Cambodians Thanh among them welcomed Japanese incursion as a liberating force against Western imperialism. Can you explain the complex relationship between Cambodians and Japan?

Jagel: Sure. And it is an interesting one. And it's also a tricky one. I mean, this idea of Asian for Asians, the greater East Asian coprosperity sphere. This is the sort of Japanese concept that that they're sort of pushing out there. It is really more, from the Japanese perspective, more concerned with economic self-sufficiency than colonial liberation. So if you're an average Khmer peasant, I'm not sure how much these concepts mean to you. I'm not sure how much you're hearing about them. Much of the rhetoric is central to however Son Ngoc Thanh’s writings during this period. And he kind of uses that rhetoric as a means to attempt to gain more power for removing French from Cambodia. So, that's his idea. That's his goal. I think to him, it's a means to an end.  It is not clear how much of this is like, quote unquote true believer talk on the part of some Son Ngoc Thanh versus maybe political expediency. I think it's a little muffled there. But, he organizes this protest, a monk is defrocked and jailed. And so Ngoc Thanh orders a massive protest in response to this, that is done by the French. And his hope is that Japanese officials are going to kind of swoop in and join this massive protest in front of the colonial residents and take out, remove the French from power. And that does not go exactly as planned. And so Son Ngoc Thanh is sort of forced into hiding. He heads to Battambang briefly, then over to Bangkok and from there he is subsequently sifted away to Tokyo, where he lives under an assumed identity. And he's there for over two years.  The uprising is the Revolution of the Umbrellas, as it's known is in mid 42. And he goes to Japan at the beginning of 1943.  And so he'll be there until May of 1945.  But there are writings he has with correspondence with followers back in Cambodia. And he's kind of referencing a lot of these ideas and concepts. Again, the experience in Cambodia is different than other colonial locations. So, the Cambodia one, Japan is a little more hands off than in other places.  But yeah, it's the Second World War, it's interesting, that there's so much, (laughs) there's libraries worth of books written about the Second World War. You know, there's a lot to say about it and there's similarly a lot to say about Cambodia as well.

Gary: Cambodia during World War Two was in a strange place. On the one hand, Japan exercised nominal hegemony given it was the great military power in the region. However, its officials lacked the linguistic and cultural expertise to administer Cambodia, and so they left the French officials in place. Did the French still exercise any real power, and how did this impact Cambodians?

Jagel: So after experiencing some, let's call them, administration issues, I guess, if you will, for lack of a better phrase in Malay and Java, Japan decided that nominal day to day activity, day to day operations they'll be led by the Vichy French operatives. Japan set up some kind of military outposts and barracks and things like that in Cambodia. But sort of the day to day, in theory, is going to be headed up by the Vichy French. Late 1940 Thailand, they see Hey! France, they've just been defeated in Europe. Japan has moved in. They're in a pretty weakened state. This might be a great opportunity to retake, here we go with our ping pong going back and forth these provinces in western Cambodia. So at least to the Franco-Thai war and Japan kind of acts as a sort of a mediator during, this brings it to a ceasefire between the two.  So France, I don’t know, I'm not sure if they technically lose the war, but they lose Battambang, Pailin, Siem Reap provinces where again Angkor is located  others. So the loss of these territories could be spun to I think drive a wedge maybe between the local population and the French. That is a  Japanese goal in their various European colonies.  Let's drive a wedge between the colonized power that we are either supplanting or working with in the case of Vichy France. I think that's a secondary to resource exploitation and support of the war in China. It's kind of their number one goal. That's their number one motivation. And in a lot of places, I think less so in Cambodia. But especially in the East Dutch, East Indies or Indonesia. The experienced war under the Japanese for your average local person is a, while the rhetoric is liberation Asia for Asians greater East Asia coprosperity sphere. The reality for a lot of people on the ground is a even more brutal existence than it often was in these colonized places.

Gary: Japan's defeat in August 1945 dealt a terrible blow to Cambodian independence as French forces returned. Why was France determined to retake Cambodia and how did it do so?

Jagel: So yes, Japan, I guess wink wink nod nods and gives the green light for independence to be declared in March of 1945. And so it is, and that lasts until October of 1945. I mentioned earlier Son Ngoc Thanh returns in May. He returns as the foreign minister and then later assumes the role of prime minister in Cambodia. So that occurs in August. So, what does he have roughly two months serving in the job.  He is a prime minister of an independent Cambodia.  But that does not last long. The British forces and French return and Son Ngoc Thanh is whisked away. He is put on trial in Saigon, and then he's sentenced to 20 years house detention in France, where I don't think he lived a super rough life.  But he was out of the picture in many ways. Why is France determined to retake Cambodia?  Restoring the jewel of its empire.  This is the home of Angkor, Angkor Wat.  This is a place that at these sort of colonial exhibitions that they will recreate to show the world sort of the stunning majesty of its great, more broad empire. So to do this, promises a more agency within the broad French Union. There are political parties that are active in drawing up and drafting a new constitution, which, those actually left the power of the monarch somewhat ambiguous, which would become maybe an issue later. But more control by Cambodians over day to day life. By 1950, Cambodia, Laos, and the three provinces of Vietnam, Cochinchina, Annam and Tonkin, are recognized as independent states within the French Union. And so France is, hey! we want to take this back. We want to restore our former glory, but we realize that and maybe with some prodding by other nations, we need to allow some semblance of agency and, some semblance of independence, maybe within the more broad French Union, if that is going to happen.

Gary: Can you talk about the Cambodian independence movement and how this country eventually won sovereignty?

Jagel: So this is a long, long time coming. Something Son Ngoc Thanh had been agitating for since the 30s, in a post World War Two world. Son Ngoc Thanh is not there. His political followers, a lot of them form the Democrat Party in Cambodia.  Many other ones are part of this really broad group called the Khmer Issarak which the Issarak could encompass really left wing Maoist, guerrillas or more conservative, like some Son Ngoc Thanh right wing elements. And the Issarak is more of a broad blanket term for them, but they are agitating from the marquis, from the from the jungle and agitating against Norodom Sihanouk, who is in charge in Cambodia, he is king in Cambodia. And he is seen as being too close to the French, to pliable and not agitating enough for independence. And so, I argue in the book, Son Ngoc Thanh, he is one way Sihanouk in a way to tamp down some of this agitation against him. Hey, let's bring some Son Ngoc Thanh back from France. And maybe the good graces, his political followers will see this sort of outreach. And Son Ngoc Thanh returns and there's 200,000 people waiting for him and banners. He's sort of recognized as sort of this big leader for the independence movement. And his time back in Phnom Penh is very brief. I believe it's just a couple of months. And then he is again, he's agitating at this time with Sihanouk. Sihanouk is not Son Ngoc Thanh eyes pushing hard enough for independence.  Son Ngoc Thanh flees and then he agitates from the jungle, from the Marquis. I argue that Sihanouk is a relatively speaking, slow adopter of a lot of the positions that Son Ngoc Thanh has been pushing for. But he does adopt them. And by 1952, 1953, he is firmly, firmly ensconced in pushing the country toward independence. And he goes on this sort of tour of western provinces, this royal crusade of independence, and he says, I'm not going to return until the French give assurances that full independence is going to come to Cambodia.  And he goes on kind of the self-imposed sort of exile. And there's actually some really, really great video footage of him sort of staged, but, kind of walking waist deep through rivers and things like that with this kind of group promenading behind him and all this stuff. It's quite interesting.  But long story short, it eventually works. I mean, France has so much going on with their neighbor to the east in Vietnam, the first Indochinese War that it just seems sort of untenable to continue. And they get independence in 1953. That is fully recognized on November 9th, 1953.

Gary: Looming in the background of these events is the United States. As the world's superpower, U.S. officials wanted to exert their influence across the world. Yet they were in a bind. On the one hand, they wanted a strong France to act as an ally in Europe. But on the other, they feared that imposing colonialism on indigenous peoples would prove unpopular. Can you explain how US officials dealt with this complex geopolitical situation?

Jagel: Sure. And it is complex. And I think U.S. perceptions of colonialism broadly, French colonialism in particular changed quite a bit with the passing of Roosevelt in 1945. Roosevelt is against, for the most part, returning to the pre-war status quo. The big three, Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt, a lot of their discussions at Yalta, are around a post-war what's a post-war world going to look like?  Churchill is very much against giving up any colonies, British colonies. But he doesn't think any France or the Dutch or anyone should have to give up their colonies.  Roosevelt is very much pushing for that. Roosevelt very, very much against in his eyes, the sort of ineptitude of French colonialism.  You're supposed to be there as a protectorate of these people and you've completely failed, right?  Japan has swept in and taken over. So, you had one job, as they say.  So that as I said, that kind of switches and changes after his death.  Truman following up is less hardcore than Roosevelt is in that manner.  I think for the United States, they see it as the war ends, France has made known their intentions that they want to return.  Hey, let's thwart a potential communist influence, provide some sort of semblance of a path to self-governance. That's going to be the best way to sort of thwart this. So that's a lot of what the United States is pushing for during this period, the kind of period in the 40s as we go into the early 1950’s.  It's complicated. I think the fact that the United States does not have a lot of experts on the ground, that creates a lot of, sort of chaotic analysis. Sometimes incorrect analysis of the situation on the ground.  But, hey, a stable France in Europe is essential to a post-war world. And if one of the ways we're going to get that stability is by okay, giving the the nod to a French return to Indochina, then we're going to do it. So, that is something that the United States is dealing with and attempting to kind of navigate there. So there's an interesting kind of correspondence, sort of detailing maybe the confusion between France, the United States and some of these issues.  The United States ambassador to France, Geoffrey Caffrey met with de Gaulle in March of 1945. And, in this meeting, de Gaulle kind of expresses his, he is sort of perplexed by these sort of U.S. refusals to in this instance that they're discussing that he wants to allow the British to transport French reinforcement efforts to Indochina. And so I'm going to just quote briefly from de Gaulle, from this, “We do not understand your policy. What are you driving at? Do you want us to become, for example, one of the Federated States under the Russian ages. When Germany falls, they will be upon us. If the public here comes to realize that you are against us in Indochina, there will be a terrific disappointment. Nobody knows to what that will lead. We do not want to become communist. We do not want to fall into the Russian orbit. But I hope that you do not push us into it.” So it is that fear, that kind of the quote unquote red menace, which, it's already poking up its head in 1945. And I think that's something that the United States, in Cambodia and Indochina broadly, and in France itself, in Europe is fearful of. And so I think that de Gaulle quote kind of speaks a lot about about that situation.

Gary: Your book is incredibly rich, and the chapters concerning the French interactions with Cambodia only make up the first part. What can readers expect from your work once Cambodia moves to a post French existence?

Jagel: Sure after independence things get in some ways more complicated.  We have the Cold War sort of rushing in, and this is maybe the second, last two thirds of the book are more focused on this, and a lot of that brings in the United States, the United States relationship with Cambodia and how that changes during this post-World War Two Cold War era, how it changes under different presidencies, how it changes over over time. And in response to the war in Vietnam, which is kind of growing and growing as an issue. So, Cambodia, they are ostensibly neutral. During the war, Norodom Sihanouk may have had his leanings toward the Communist side,  that in terms of international communism. But within Cambodia, he is extremely harsh and brutal against communists within Cambodia itself. So the United States is attempting to sort of navigate this.  It's the 1950s. Eisenhower, very fond of using subterfuge in the CIA and spies and things like that to kind of get a job done that he wants done. You know, we see it in Guatemala, we see it in Iran. We see an attempt in Cambodia in 1959. So my book attempts to dive into that, the attempted coup. Son Ngoc Thanh is a player in that failed coup attempt against Norodom Sihanouk. Sihanouk is not seen as kind of pliable. He is seen as is too friendly to North Vietnam, ho Chi Minh. We see a break in relations between Cambodia and the United States in the 60s.  We see a resumption of relations in 1969, as the war in Vietnam is kind of peaking in 1968-69. We see the United States again, moving toward, hey, maybe this could be an opportunity. I think there are the coup that unseat Sihanouk in 1970. My book details that and the role of the United States in that overthrow. And there's a lot going on there.  And that ushering in the Khmer Republic, which is in some ways good.  The H.R. Haldeman’s diary from following the the overthrow book said that it was all right with us, his diary entry for that day. So we have Lon Nol coming into power and, you know, all his ineptitude, incompetence in the trying to lead this Republican government. While civil war is breaking out in Cambodia, failing in war, corruption and government.  Son Ngoc Thanh is this sort of figure that is in the shadows for a lot of this. He's also a figure that returns to government in 1972 and again, is prime minister in 1972.   So it's kind of in some ways a return to power. His goal: remove the French, remove the monarchy and remove Sihanouk is finally realized in 1970. So it's kind of his lifelong dream. And he comes back and has a brief, a brief period where he returns as prime minister for about, what, eight months or so? Then he is ushered off into retirement, where he goes back to his home in southern Vietnam, where he's originally from.  There's so much to the story. His recruitment of Khmer Serei figures from southern Vietnam that are ethnically Khmer that live in Vietnam. Having them agitate against Sihanouk, having them form the brunt of the army for the Khmer Republic in 1970 and the civil war against the communist Khmer Rouge. There's a lot of moving parts. In my book it attempts to make this, I think a lot of it is foggy and cloudy, attempts to clarify a lot of this stuff.  There's a lot of moving parts there. So if you're interested in not just the French era and the French period but a wider look at the war in Vietnam, the role of the United States, and not just focusing on Vietnam itself, but there's a lot of other things going on at the same time.  The destabilization of Cambodia is certainly part of this. And, and how that kind of paved the way in many ways for the Khmer Rouge to assume power in 1975.  And the tragedy that followed my book does not focus on that in great detail. But my book kind of focuses on a lot of the pieces that lead up to that. So, there's a lot there, a lot to take in. But, it was a fun experience researching and writing and a rewarding one. So I hope people can get something out of it, for sure.

Gary: The book is Khmer Nationalist: Son Ngoc Thanh, the CIA and the Transformation of Cambodia. Doctor Jagel thank you for being on the show.

Jager: Thank you so much for having me, I appreciate it. It was great.

Gary: As always, donations keep the podcast going. So if you would like to make a one time donation or become a patron, please consider doing so. Thank you very much for your continued support.